Can someone explain the cluster feeding thing to me? After a great start the boys have this week decided that night time is awake time & I can't figure out whether to feed them or try to get them to sleep because they get over tired?!

DH's mum p*ssed me off last night. He was asking her about when they will start sleeping through the night and her reply was "I don't know what your doing wrong, all of you were sleeping through at 6 weeks!!" Thats really not helpful, all that she has offered is criticism when a little support would be fantastic! My mum has stayed a couple of times but i am concious of wearing her out too (she is 72).
Plunket are coming around with a sleep dvd next week, but i would appreciate advice from anyone about how to settle them & get them to sleep a little longer (to be fair I think that they are having a growth spurt at the moment).

Well off to bed for a couple of hours before the little munchkins wake up again. As I said before, just as well they are so damn cute!!

(sheepishly) Hi everyone Can't believe how long since I've been on here. Not sure I even introduced my wee boy...Callan John was born 22/02, 8lb2oz and trying to talk even before his shoulders were out!

I've just read the previous 5 pages, and it all sounds very familiar - cluster feeding, growth spurts, not knowing whether they're overtired or really hungry, endless burping. And we have 'hammock duty' too, Eve - in fact, the hammock stays in the lounge 24hrs a day, and one of us naps on the sofa during the night so we can easily bounce him back to sleep when he stirs. Not sure if we're setting ourselves up for trouble later on though, as he isn't really learning to settle himself. Still, we're having ongoing breastfeeding issues (Raynaud's, thrush, breast infections, engorgement, blocked ducts, latching problems...did I miss anything?), and I just can't deal with that and trying to change his sleep habits (let's face it, I hardly have the brainpower to make a cup of tea at the moment).

Anyway, just wanted to say hi, and I'll be around a bit more now as my mum has finally gone back to the UK after 5 months here

You twin mums are legends, I don't know how you do it - I find things SO busy and hard with one, so you should all be so proud of yourselves.........

Also to add onto the cluster feeding topic. As well as cluster feeding at growth spurts, the 'theory' is that if you cluster feed in the late afternoon/early evenings it helps with night sleeps. The idea being feeding 3/4 hourly during the day 9keeping day sleeps to 2 hours or less) then feed more frequently in the evening. The idea is that breastmilk is richer in the fattier hind milk in the evenings and that by cluster feeding you will fill the babies up so that they hopefully sleep longer in the night. Although you feel like you have less milk it is of a richer nature. This worked quite well for us but of course these things don't work for everyone the same.

BLass - hugs to you........good on you for doing what you need to do to survive, sometimes that is all we can do to keep our sanity!

TK - what gorgeous boys you have! Hope the plunket advice is good - remember too the Plunket House that you can go visit and they will help with settling and give you a rest too! invaluable.

Spot you later

BL - I hear you when you say "doing what you can do to suvive". The way I look at it at the moment with Matthew is that I do what I need to do to get him to sleep as he is not a big fan of it at all (in with me to start with at nite) then if we end up creating a bit of a bad habit you can break it later on when he is a little older just so I can get some sleep/rest myself. Just want to enjoy him and make him comfortable since he has reflux and spills so much. He has no routine at all, so just have to go with it at the mo till we get the sleeping thing sorted.

Must dash as the little mite has woken up and wants a feed.

Take care everyone
Sue

Hope to get back on shortly

Thanks for explaining that Madmum and Eeyore. Its so confusing when you hear so many conflicting things. My milk supply is not the best to begin with, which is why I have to offer formula top ups as well. The lactation consultant at the hospital explained that because of my age, c-sect and ivf history, it affects my milk production as well. Still makes you feel inadequate though when you can't produce enough to feed your babies

So, do you put them back to sleep in between feeds in the evening?? Or just keep them up and let them feed ('cause they keep falling asleep!)

Eve - have you tried tandem feeding yet? I have done it a couple of times, maybe I should try it more often.

Suebe - sounds like Matthew is keeping you busy?! How is DD coping with it all?

TK - I had a book which touched on cluster feeding and it said to put them back to sleep at night after feeding.

I had planned to do it with Lucy, i.e. feed at 7pm, again at 9pm and then once more before we went to bed around 11pm. As Rach said, the theory is to fill them up so they don't wake for the very early or very late night feeds. Confession time for me is that I didn't end up doing it with Lucy, LOL because I was such a wuss and was too scared to wake her up once I had put her down for her night sleep. We are still having a 3-4am feed (but it is now lengthening and she did 10hours a couple of nights ago!), but normally her last feed is around 7pm just before bed, so I'm more than happy that she is waking only the once after I have put her down. Kisses to my two favourite boys xx

Hullo to everyone else ... sorry I haven't been on much of late, have been incredibly busy doing "stuff" ... LOL, don't ask me what because that is exactly what DH asks when he gets home and I'm always saying "stuff" ... but completely unable to qualify it!

Eve - Your mum is 75? WOW ... she looks awesome! Awww for you getting smiles ... we must be due another piccie soon of the girls ... I'll bet they'll have changed so much from the last ones.

BL - Hey lovely to see you posting ... hope you are making the most of having your mum around :-)

Hi to Suebe, Ruth & Rach and any other mummy lurkers !!

Yeah, my conclusion on cluster feeding is that it will drive you nuts, but don't fight it too hard. Yes, they are overtired, but yes they also need to tank up on the fatty hindmilk as much as possible before they go to sleep. At the moment we are trying to hold them off in the afternoon to get a decent 5-6pm feed, then put them in the hammocks and bounce them to see if they will at least do a 45 min nap. Then just let them feed and doze and feed and doze until they finally collapse asleep on my lap.

TK - never feel inadequate........feeding is not as easy nor as natural as everyone likes you to think....even though we were very lucky and had no feeding issues with my DD, it was still hard slog. With #2 I am thinking that even if everything goes well feeding wise, I am considering that after a couple of months making the last feed of the night a formula feed , my girlfreind does this as she has 3 kids and just does not have the time to sit and cluster feed all evening with kids to feed, bath and get to bed. Do what works for you and your darlings.

Also, Complan is supposed to be good for helping stimulate the right amount of calories to help in feeding, my mw had me drink it from lunch to help with energy and feeding.

Night feeds for us where feed/change and straight back to bed for all of us with as minimal interaction as possible.......which to honest was easy when you are a walking zombie in the middle of the night.........LOL

take care

Good grief, I'm glad I didn't have that lactation consultant - age 42 (nearly 43 at birth), 7 IVFs, C-section ...!! She probably would have told me not to bother even trying.

I persisted with BF for 2-3 weeks before concluding that I just didn't have enough to satisfy them. My LC was supportive about offering top-ups in the evenings because I think she could see I was at the end of my tether and it was either going to be that or to h*ll with the BFing and off to FF we go. So, we used the top-ups for the traquiliser effect in the evening, which worked a few times. [I was a tearful basket case over having to do this - totally hear you on the feelings of inadequacy. ] And then it stopped working. No sooner would we feed them full of formula, they'd start wailing like their little bellies hurt. Bugger this, I thought, and cut them down to half, then cut the formula feed out for one, then the other over the next few days. And I did lots of research about how to increase supply. Started taking Fenugreek caps, drinking Weleda Nursing Tea; I was also drinking Complan, milo, about 3 litres of water a day, eating midnight snacks at every night feed, etc etc ... Anyway, I do think I had supply issues early on (basically just demand going up more steeply than supply could match, particularly being so sleep deprived and exhausted - it wasn't all in my head as some LCs would have you believe!!) but that this corrected itself eventually. The LC said she thought it was more a behaviour problem (evening fussiness) than a supply problem. I asked about domperidone (a supplement clinically proven to increase supply) but she said that was more appropriate for people who'd had a slow start for some reason (e.g. babies in NICU or too small to suck very well, or feeding after @@ reduction surgery) and wasn't appropriate in my case (me, I just *look* like I've had @@ reduction surgery!! ;)).

So ... personally, I think there's a lot to be said for doing a little of both (so much saner than either shredded nipples or always having to fiddle with bottles etc), but IF you wanted to increase the BF and decrease the formula, you might try some of the supplements I used and/or ask about domperidone, and look at giving one or both of them slightly smaller amounts of formula every day. You would almost certainly find your supply would keep up.

Re: evening feeds, we try putting them back to bed, but if they are persistently waking, we often keep them downstairs and let them feed, then doze in their bouncinettes, then feed again. If they are really fussy I just load them onto the sofa with me and lots of cushions, plug them into the calfeteria and let them suck the dry tanks (they are always soooo frustrated about this!) until they finally get enough and/or give up from exhaustion and fall asleep in my lap. Note to self: go to the loo before getting set up, and make sure you have everything you need within arm's reach - TV remote, phone, cell phone, drink, snacks, tissues, Infacol wind drops, etc etc ...

For the night feeds we just get them up, feed, burp, change, feed again, burp, and back to bed. No talking, minimal eye contact, keep it very boring. Otherwise they start thinking it's playtime!

Eve

Hmm thanks for the thoughts. Interesting about the dom. This was discussed with the lc at the hospital but she didn't think that it would be that beneficial to me, maybe only increasing by about 10ml. I spent many days & nights in the nicu in tears over my milk. One night it got so bad I only pumped 7ml, one of the nurses said to me "Is that all!" My little one wasn't tolerating feeds initially so all my ebm was going to him which was ok until he upped his feeds. This meant that little Thomas would get a bit of a bf then formula which i hated! Anyway, I am definately trying to feed then more and formula less, but I never know how much they are getting which worries me. They are still both putting on weight though, so this is a good indication.

Well, off to have dinner. Had 6 week immunisations today, boys a bit sleepy, but other then that, so far so good!

Interesting discussion on supply etc.

Eve, interested to read your tips on keeping up supply. Did you reckon that tea helped? I am taking a whey protein supplement occasionally, but otherwise just eating like a horse. Then again I only have one hungry little hippo to feed!

TK, if you're boys are putting on weight, I'm sure there isn't a problem with your supply. I was having arguments with my DH about amounts, until I realised I DID know how much C was getting (more or less). We have been doing lots of bottle feeding with EBM as I'm so sore all the time. My DH is sometimes inclined to interpret the merest wave of a fist near the mouth as hunger, so even if I had just breastfed C, my DH would claim he can't have got enough, and want to give him whatever was in the fridge. So I started expressing immediately after feeding. We both knew that I would get about 100ml from each breast when it was full, so when I expressed immediately after a feed and only got 10ml, it was clear C had got a decent feed. Problem solved! Perhaps expressing when full, and then on another feed expressing afterwards, would settle your fears they aren't getting enough?

TK - just to add one more note to the BF advice... I didn't exclusively BF my twins, but pretty close for the first 8 weeks. At the advice of the lc I'd feed, pump and top up with ebm or formula if I didn't have any ebm. Didn't let them go over three hours. I also used domperidone, blessed thistle and fenugreek.

Since then I've learned the cluster feeding it a good thing. Apparently foremilk is the same as hindmilk, its just been around longer and got diluted. Apparently milk picks up fat on the walls of the ducts. The longer it sits, the more diluted it gets and becomes foremilk. Cluster feeding babies mean they get more hindmilk (I always thought it would be the older milk that was fattier, but no funnily enough). Babies cluster feed to stock up for the night.

The other thing is, I look back now and wonder how I managed to go through that rigmarole to feed the twins - particularly at night, when I'd watch the clock and realise I'd been up an hour. It doesn't seem nearly as important now.

I don't lurk often (and when I do I post), but its such a treat hearing about you and Eve (and the other veteren IVF barbies) welcoming their babies. A hearty congratulations from me (aka Doris)

just got a text from madmum

"welcome to Luka ... born 13 april at 11.20am. our big lad weighing in at 4.95kg. all is well and we are very happy"

congrats Madmum, and welcome Luka!

Hope everyone else is having a better day than I am. Went to a baby massage course - learnt some useful tips, but when C had a meltdown at the end (combination of wind and too much noise, too many people) we had to endure rather a lot of well-meaning advice - try holding him like this, try telling him it's OK to cry about his past traumas, try this for colic, try that for reflux. Argh!

Then I came home and had my first major baby argument with DH (after a small meltdown cos I couldn't latch C on, which at 7 weeks is getting more than a little frustrating). Had to go through a huge argument about cloth nappies and nappy rash before DH would agree that when I've got thrush on my nipples, and C has thrush in his mouth, the most likely cause of a rash on C's bottom (on bits that don't even touch his nappy!) is thrush! Sleep deprivation is obviously affecting his logic badly.

Rachel, welcome to Luka. OMG, what a weight!!!! My bigger twin is only just getting close to that now, at 9 weeks. What a head start you have!!!

Oh BL, sounds like a sucky day, and soooo sorry about the thrush. Ugh!! Have they given you meds (nilstat?) to give the babies?

Doris, totally agree about cluster feeding. I think what I am shooting for now is "managed cluster feeding", if there is such a thing. You know, the kind that gives you a chance to gulp your dinner in between? LOL.

Hope everyone's well. We had the day from hell on Saturday but MUCH better yesterday, looking good so far this morning, touch wood!

Eve

Hi all, finally found this thread - better late than never right!

Hi SarahJay, Eve, PM, Lou, Hamiltonian!!! Hope you are all well and your bubbas are doing even better

Ollie is six and a half months now (time sure flies) He is teething at the mo, poor little man, but apart from that is fit and healthy.

Hi Butterfly, long time no see! Hi to everyone else. Wow Luka is a great weight! Take a bow all you twin mummies, you all sound like you are doing an awesome job.
Jaymie is now 8 months old and she is a delightful girl. Normally happy and easy going and a great sleeper. Taking her time with things like crawling and producing teeth! Here's my latest fav piccy of her:


Oh and this one!

Oh Lou she's gorgeous! And growing up so fast!

Butterfly - hi! - would love to see a picture of Oliver too.

Congrats madmum on Lucas' arrival! Great name. Looking forward to hearing all about him.

Hi everyone else. I haven't been posting much on here, but have been reading about everyones progress. Am completely in awe of you twinny mums. It must be such hard work.

Everything is going really well with us. Renna is now 5 months old and really smiley and happy. Not that we don't have our moments of course.... Here are a couple of recent pics of her for you:

Wow, its great to see you oldies posting!
Hi Lou, Butterfly and PM. I can't believe how big your babies are, where did all that time go?? They are so gorgeous.

Thanks Country Mum on the tips, and everyone else. I still am not sure about the whole cluster feeding thing. I think that I am paranoid about BF'ing after the struggle that I have had to date, and it just doesn't feel like they get enough but I am willing to persist.

Had a visit from Plunket today and Thomas has put on 330gms but Joshua has only managed 50 (in a week)! So now I am really worried about him. Especially when I think that he is feeding so well. They suggested that I try feeding him every 3 - 3 1/2 hours now instead of the 4 - 5. Just because he is that much smaller. But you other twim Mums will appreciate how tough it is having one on 5 hourly and one on 3! Thye also said it could be because I had just feed him last time he was weighed. Man, just when you think that you have got it right!

On a brighter note, DH is back at work this week. Although I miss the help, and i am completely exhausted, I am looking forward to establishing my own routine. I even managed to take the car in for a warrant today and then have some lunch at the mall. It felt good to get out by myself, at least I know that i can do it.

Well, keep the advice coming. Its invaluable to a first time Mum...so thanks heaps!!

TK - your boys are lovely (saw the pic on the other thread I think) I can sympathise with what you are going through with Joshua and weight gain - we had a hard time with Oliver in the beginning too. Just keep doing what you are doing (a fantastic job!) and he will be fine

Since you asked PM, here are some pics of Ollie (Renna is gorgeous by the way!) Sorry they are so big!