Just wondering if anyone knows much about male factor causes of miscarriage - particularly the dna fragmentation testing? On the advice of a non-Western medicine person I've been seeing, DH went for a Halo sperm test through Fertility Associates, and it's come back at 40%. Somehow we seem to have by-passed the system in terms of consultations in person with specialists on this one, so he got those results over the phone and we'll be getting a written copy in the next couple of days.

Am now left wondering if this could be a factor in our miscarriages (I think maybe it could be?), but don't really have enough context around it to know. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience around this at all?

Hi Milly,
according to this:
http://www.berlin-baby.co.uk/infertility/diagnostik/diagnostik-spermiendiagnostik

it may be associated with miscarriage.

Really interested to know who you've been seeing for alternative medical advice. I'm also Wellington based and have suffered recurrent miscarriages.

Milly - try googling secondary recurrent miscarriage, which is what you have. That is, recurrent miscarriage after a live birth.

http://www.ivf1.com/boys-cause-miscarriage/

When I was TTC, I found the original Danish study - on this website it appears it has been replicated, and the findings support the original study. My first born boy was born early, but looked overcooked ie. no vernix, small umbillical cord, growth slowed down after 32 weeks. Not conclusive, but my second born boy was a twin. His sister was covered in vernix, huge umbilical cord, he was small, dry and had a little umbillical cord. They'd been growing at the same rate until 32 weeks, and then he slowed down.

I ended up using aspirin and heparin - I'd asked for the colorado proctocol, but they wouldn't do that in New Zealand at the time. They do now however.

Thanks Gordy, I hadn't seen that link, that's really interesting. Sounds like it's definitely worth exploring to see what we can do.

I've been seeing Katrina Gascoyne at the Clinic of Oriental Medicine in Mana. She has a particular interest in the fertility and miscarriage area, and we've found her great for suggesting other ideas and avenues to explore, and even in providing some of the miscarriage booklets that I would have expected to get from WHAAS. Highly recommend making the trip out to see her - though be warned, can be a six week wait to get in to see her initially.

Thanks for that info Country Mum. I've been through all the testing and been told that our cause is idiopathic - which basically in this case just means they can't find anything wrong with me, other than my age. With these Halo results (the first time any tests have been done on DH, doctors dismissed male factor as a likelihood without doing any) I'm wondering now if perhaps the problem isn't necessarily with me - the information online certainly seems to suggest that. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar results around that, and what if anything they did to help improve them?

I had testing and nothing came up either - however unexplained miscarriage doesn't neccessarily mean male factor. Immunological causes of miscarriage go largely unidentified.

I have absolutely no idea if it's related, but do you have allergies?

Oh, and re: sperm quality, there are a bunch of dietary things you can do. Google is your friend. My DH has very low sperm count, which is why we needed IVF. We concieved my last child naturally, and I think it might have had something to do with our diet at the time. Lots of steamed cabbage and bell peppers.

http://theadventurouswriter.com/blogbaby/5-foods-that-increase-sperm-count-production-and-motility/

Thanks for that Milly- really timely for me as my miscarriages have also been classified as idiopathic. I'm 39 in May, and really feel like this year is my last chance, if you know what I mean.

Other than aspirin, my specialist couldn't offer any medical advice about what to do, so I'm looking into alternative therapies. A good friend of mine is an acupuncturist, and she is going to start treating me, and I'll definitely book in with Katrina.

Country Mum- I am very allergy prone, and I've often wondered if this is linked to my losses. I've done some reading about natural killer cells and miscarriages, but the specialists here seem a bit skeptical- not enough clinical proof etc.

It's nice to chat to you folks- lots of my friends have had one miscarriage, but it's a different kettle of fish when you have more than that.

I've read about the NKcells too, however I think they're more indiscriminate (not 100% though). I think the HY antigen is a more likely theory if you think you miscarry boys. It's basically an autoimmune response.

I had my progesterone levels test, and I don't repsond to anything but the strongest (and sadly most $$) IM injections of progesterone. I think that might have been a factor, as one of the jobs of progesterone when pregnant, is it acts an immune suppresant for the uterus, inhibiting those NK cells.

I have no idea if allergies are related. However I have allergies, and I know my miscarriages are more than likely immunological (even though they're technically unexplained). I figure if my body can have weird immune responses to pollen and dust mites, and prawns, then why not a Y chromosome?

Have a google on the Colorado Protocol - it uses a varient of a prednisone, just can't remember the name of the particular steriod. Anyway, the idea is that your immune system is depressed enough to carry a pregancy.

Hi Country Mum and Gordy

No, no allergies Country Mum. Male factor hadn't really occurred to me before this test was suggested, as the doctors had obviously so quickly discounted it, but these results tend to suggest that we do need to do further investigation in that direction. We've now had a letter from the specialist regarding the results, saying he'd like to see us in the public system again with regards to them - we had effectively been told by Recurrent Miscarriage, so long and all the best. So, while more than likely my age etc don't exactly help us, and there may be other undiscovered things about me that aren't helping, we can't do anything about my age, or much about the things we can't find, and this is looking like something we maybe can do to help.

I'm taking all the things that have been prescribed etc, and we're still investigating other possibilities for me - but as no one had ever given any consideration to any problems on DH's side, I was just interested if anyone else had been through the DNA fragmentation thing and had anything they could share about it.

Gordy, you should definitely come along to the Miscarriage Support meetings in Ngaio that Bubblebear posts dates for. I've been a few times, and there seems to be a mix of people each time who've had a range of experiences, it is good to chat.
And, I know what you mean about feeling like it's your last chance - I'll be 40 later this year, and now definitely won't be able to have a baby before my birthday, which feels like a huge (and not so great) milestone. BTW, keep pushing about ANYTHING you have a feeling about - I've actually been given a prescription that would never have been volunteered if I hadn't been asking questions around it, at which point the specialist conceded it was worth a try and wrote me the script on the spot. He'd never have brought it up otherwise.

I know exactly how frustrating it can be not to have answers. I also felt very frustrated by the conversative oppinions I was given. You're doing the right thing by questioning, researching and then asking your doctor if something is right for you. It's sad that if you don't ask you don't get, but in my experience many doctors either forget or edit the options you're presented with. You ladies might want to check out a members blog. Her name is Eve46, and she started her fertility journey later, and with high FSH levels. She is AMAZING. Quite a brilliant woman in her own right, she's researched the hell out of this, and you might find some information for you on there too.

http://infertilityinfo.co.nz/

Thanks Milly and Country Mum- you guys are a great source of info and support! Will definitely try and make the next miscarriage support meeting.

Hello Milly, I was looking at an earlier thread on DNA fragmentation on this board and noticed they mention that direct sperm retrieval (gulp) during IVF can mean less damaged sperm.

Anyway, if you look at my signature you will probably recognise who I am IRL ; )

Hi

Yes, saw my Fert Specialist last week to discuss more testing to try and identify a reason for my miscarriages and DH is having the HALO sperm test for DNA Fragmentation and she said if it showed there was a problem there they can take the sperm directly from the testes as this reduces damage as Vanillabean said above.

Hi Vanillabean and Clemmy

Thanks for your posts We've now had an appointment with our specialist, and he's realised that there's more than one problem (they did the MARS test at the same time as the Halo), and basically if we hadn't been getting pregnant previously, we'd be straight to IVF at this point. So, if I'm not pregnant in three months, they'll be strongly recommending we go down that path. I guess they'd probably be doing the direct retrieval as part of that, but I haven't mentioned that to DH at this point

In the meantime, we're hoping that the lifestyle changes help - though to be honest, as the specialist said, DH was never a 20-stone 3-pack-a-day heavy drinker to start with, so who knows if the changes will be sufficient to make a difference. An interesting aside though, it came up in conversation that DH is on our spin bike every second day for 30-45mins each time, and the specialist has told him to lay off that completely. I always thought that was a bit of an old wives' tale...

Hope that they figure it out for you Clemmy. I'm not sure whether to say I hope they find something or not - but I'm thinking of you.

Vanillabean, big hugs Hope the info on tests is useful.

Thanks Milly and hoping things happen naturally for you and there is no need for IVF.

Just one other thing, my DH was on Menevit for our 2nd round of OVF and the quality of his sperm was much better so thatmay be something to look at? It doesnt improve sperm quantity but does repair DNA damage.

xx

Thanks Clemmy, DH is supposed to have been taking Menevit for the last year, but the bottle seems to have lasted a very long time. Now we've had the test results, it seems to be going down a lot faster

Yes I mentioned to my DH that the bottle he has seems to have lasted him a while too!!

Just to add quickly to this: My first 2 rounds of IVF resulted in early loss of 2 pregnancies. After this DH did the Halo sperm test and had over 66% DNA fragmentation. Before doing our 3rd (and what we had decided was to be our final try with IVF) DH made a few lifestyle changes. These included taking Menevit, no alcohol, no coffee, getting fitter, losing weight and generally eating better. We kept doing the Halo testing until the results were down to an acceptable level - over time (approx 6mths) the % of DNA fragmentation steadily declined. I can't remember what level he got down to before we tried IVF again (maybe 15% - 20%), but our final try resulted in our baby boy. Who knows if this is what made the difference, and I certainly had my own fertility issues too, but in our minds it was certainly worth postponing the IVF until his tests showed better results. We wish Halo testing was done at the very beginning of our association with FA and now we recommend to anyone we know doing IVF to ask to have this test done before beginning.
Good luck to you and your DH's!

Hi Casey, thanks so much for sharing your experience - that sounds really encouraging! I've been a bit sceptical about the changes we may actually see, but that gives me a lot more hope. Thank you!