Hi there,

I'm just wondering what other people would do if they suspect someone else's child has something like aspergers?

I've just spent a week with my sister and her just turned three year old. The 3 yo I though seemed like she cld have aspergers or something similar. My sister is really struggling with her daughters behaviour but doesn't seem to have considered there could be something up.

Her daughter was a little slow physically developing (but not significantly). Eg not sitting till 10 months not walking till 16months. But has good language And fantastic at rote learning and memory.

The behaviour that concerns me is she really doesn't care what people think. She is insanely independent, goes off and does things on her own, couldn't relate to her same age cousins, no pretend play but constantly trying to figure out how things work and fiddling with things, had no sense of what she can/can't do physically so can't be left on her own for a minute, has no sense of danger, won't listen when people tell her not to do something, has no sense of famililarity with people - just as likely to hug a stranger as her mother.

Am I being too critical - could just be quirkyness? But she reAlly did stick out as being unusual.

Would you mention something to the family? Or just leave it? As I say, they are really struggling with her (she was a perfect easy baby so this is all new to them).

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Jude

There are some key signs that you mention - in particular the communication with others is one. Depending on the person they may or may not be ready to see the possible connection.

What do you know about how your sister best takes advice, ideas or information? Think about the best way to present it to her - in person, on the phone, an email?? Would she be best to just have the idea mentioned to her and then leave the whole topic alone for her to digest? Would she appreciate you discussing why this thought has occurred to her?

Here is the advice I found on an autism website:

What if it’s someone else’s child?

What do you do if you recognize symptoms of autism in a child who’s not your own? Classic signs of ASD may be more obvious to the parent of an already-diagnosed autistic child than to a parent unfamiliar with the disorder. If you’re the one making the observation, are you obligated to tell the child’s parents? Our advice is to approach with caution: from pregnancy on, parents are barraged with unsolicited advice from family members and strangers. This could be seen as an especially low blow, and there’s always at least a slight chance that you’re wrong. A gentler approach, such as sharing stories about your late talker and offering the number of a good speech therapist, might be better received.

Yeah, that's a really hard one. Your sister might not realize what all those signs mean. I certainly didn't until someone pointed it out to me. And I didn't take to well to the idea either, and was pretty upset with the person who first suggested I should get DS checked out. Nowadays I'm actually really grateful to her, but it's been nearly a year.

I would probably test the waters really gently by thinking about which of the behaviors is most worrying to them and suggesting that they might be able to get some suggestions for how to deal with those behaviours from a child development expert. If your sister welcomes your input then you can maybe say more. But a lot of parents think that their child's behaviour being criticized is a criticism of their parenting (well it does feel like that doesn't it!) so be prepared to be rebuffed.

I know a child at a play group that I am 99% sure is on the autism spectrum, but just don't know the parent well enough to say anything, it is a really tough situation because the child deserves help.

Thanks dolphin and britishlass.

It's quite a difficult thing for me to bring up casually because we aren't that close. We get on well but live in different towns so don't see each other much. I think I'll just what for the right opportunity. I really feel for them though because they are at a loss with how to deal with her. At the moment she is constantly put into time out for naughty behavior - but she couldn't care less and ends up just getting into mischief in her room.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Jude

To be honest, most of that sounded like typical 3 year old behaviour to me. There was nothing that stood out as alarming to me at all.

16 months is not at all late to start walking and children who develop auditory and language skills first are often a little bit slower with motor development.

3 year olds are very wilful and most of the ones I've known have selective hearing (especially when it comes to listening to their mum). Not all of them are shy of strangers either so hugging someone she doesn't know isn't necessarily something to be alarmed about at this stage. Nor is it unusual for a 3 year old to be drawn to big kids instead of wanting to play with her own peers. They don't see themselves as little after all. Young children usually play 'alongside' rather than 'with' other children their age until they are at least 4 and sometimes even 5.

I think your sister is probably struggling with her daughter's behaviour because 3 is a very challenging age (terrible twos is nothing compared to what you go through with three year olds!!!). She probably just needs to learn some strategies to help manage her daughter's behaviour while at the same time allowing her enough freedom to develop her indepedence and continue exploring and learning about the world around her. Plunket and some kindergartens provide free information sheets to parents about what to expect at each age and stage and some strategies for managing toddlers and preschoolers behaviour. The library is bound to have some parenting books that may be useful if your sister is interested in that sort of thing.

I wouldn't be worried about your niece at all if I was you. If she's anything like my girls were, it's highly likely she was being naughtier than usual when because there was an audience around to appreciate it! My girls loved to play up more than usual whenever their Nana came to stay.

Encourage your sister to get involved in actitivies that will expose her to other pre-school aged children so she knows what to expect. Mainly Music and community playgroups (Plunket may also offer something) are a good place to start. Huggies and Treasures both have websites that parents can join. It's very reassuring being able to talk to parents who have children the same age and a bit older and getting a sense of what is normal and what's not and also finding out what to expect next.

Later on, when your niece is at kindy (or whatever early childhood centre she may go to), if there are things that are concerning your sister she will able to ask the teachers if there is anything she should be worried about.

katniksmum - I hate to disagree with you, but do you have an autistic child? Cause I used to get told by many other mums that my daughters behaviour is just like a regular kids, and it would frustrate me no end, because I KNOW that it isn't. Children don't at the age of 3 go off and play completely independently for 2 hours at a time, especially when combined with delayed development, no making eye contact, not relating to people, etc.
Regular children LIKE to play with other kids, or at least stick like glue to mum or dad till they are comfortable, that is a built in mechanism to keep them alive, they seek out adult or child company. So when they don't, that signals that there may be some underlying issue, and in this case autism is a likely candidate.

I don't mean to be argumentative, this is just a very sensitive issue for me, and the signs can be a lot more subtle than parents with "normal" kids see.

For example, My daughter Claire LOVES time out. She'll go off to her room and play there by herself for 2 hours sometimes! My other daughter HATES time out, but she feels a much stronger emotional connection to the family, and therefore that is how she sees the punishment of timeout, being emotional disconnection. Claire doesn't connect with that at all, and we are still having to teach her behaviours like hitting etc are appropriate, as they don't know how to deal with their anger, and has no sense of danger, constantly flinging herself around and doing all sorts of things. Basically we have to teach her for every single situation what is possible as she doesn't connect things together. For example, you can't stand up on THIS lazyboy and pretend its a surf board as you might fall and hurt yourself. Also, you can't stand on THIS OTHER lazyboy .... and you can't throw yourself off the top of the couch ....

I was thinking similarly dolphin. A lot of the people who told me nearly three year old DS was 'just being a boy' were people who either didn't know him terribly well ( eg only saw him at home, or only saw him a playgroup) or had no experience with autism in a preschooler. His issues are subtle and lots of people wouldn't know, except crucially the people who guess are people with autistic kids of their own. And I certainly wouldn't rely on staff at a kindy or other centre to spot a problem. Staff do not necessarily have any experience with autism either, and won't necessarily connect 'naughty' behaviour with learning issues, sensory problems, social issues etc. and that is probably especially true if there are no language problems.

The thing that stood out to me in the original post was that the child was noticeably different to others of her age (sorry can't remember the actual words used). That of itself means the child deserves to get assessed to see if she has any issues that she could get help for. She might turn out to be fine, but if not early intervention is much better than a wait and see approach.

But all that said, it still doesn't make it an easy issue to raise with the parents.

katniksmum - I get what you are saying. But having had two very difficult three year olds myself, this was not like that.

My niece was a danger to herself in a away I've never seen. Not just being naughty - but no sense of danger. No sense that she needed to stay with an adult, no sense of her own abilities. Climbing where she shouldn't, getting into dangerous things etc. That is waht struck me the most. Her lack of 'normal' play and relationships with people was secondary to that.

I agree with Dolphin and BritishLass that these aren't just the norm. I know heaps of 3 yo (and yes a lot are very frustrating and 'weird' at this age), but it was more than normal behaviour.


I do have to say something. It's going to suck saying it, and I know they won't respond to it well.

Thanks for the replies.

I'll apologise in advance for the massive post that follows.

No, I don't have an autistic child but there were a couple of autistic children (diagnosed and allocated teacher aides) at kindy with DD2 and there are others at the school where I work doing parent help both in the classroom and doing PMP (Perceptual Motor Programme). I'm also a trained secondary teacher who taught a home room class for children who were not 'ready' (or couldn't function well) in mainstream classes and I attended professional development courses on working with children with special needs (including Aspergers and autism). I majored in developmental psychology as part of my degree and when I was a new parent I was heavily involved with Parent Centre in Akl where I attended loads of parenting courses about what is 'normal' development for babies and young children (including covering what is not normal - with some of these taken by the Brainwave trust, speech therapists, etc).

My sister was working with children with special needs at her school in Akl until 8 months ago when she went on maternity leave and when I lived in the UK with my ex, he was teaching autistic children at a special needs school (these children were severe enough to need a teacher aide per child). So I have had a lot of conversations with them (particularly my sister) about autism (and dsylexia) because learning difficulties and how to help kids with difficulties learn has long been in my area of interest both as a teacher and a parent helper.

So while I don't have an autistic child, it's not my job to diagnose them and I make no claim to being an expert on Aspergers or autism, I do feel I have a reasonable sense of what 'might' be signs of aspergers (or austism) and what may just be normal behaviour for the age and developmental stage of the child. I also know from my training and from things I have subsequently read just out of curiousity, that there is a huge continiuum of behaviours that can occur in varying degrees and combinations and that these behaviour combinations can constitute 'normal', 'gifted', 'apsergers', 'austic' (or some other label) and anything and everything in between.

There are children I have come across at playgroups and kindy (in the past) and now at school, where I have wondered what they have and perhaps if there is something that could be diagnosed. In most of these cases the school (or kindy) reach a point where they will involve the parents in looking for answers and hopefully assistance (meaning if a diagnosis is made, funding may be available to help the school/kindy make a difference with teacher aide time or other resources).

My comments regarding purplebear's niece were not made out of ignorance of autism (or aspergers since that was what she asked about) but out of my own understanding of what can be normal and what may not be.


Most parents I know are involved in activities (like coffee groups, Mainly Music and playgroups) that expose them to other children the same age as their own so they tend to compare their child to his/her peers. This is the time when most parents start to notice if their child seems different to others and they start to think about whether their child is an early or late developer or overly naughty or whatever. If purplebear's sister hasn't considered there could be something up, then maybe there isn't.


This sounds normal so far. Ten months may be little late sitting (I'm assuming purplebear meant sitting independently) but at the same time it's not enough to set off alarm bells on it's own either. Walking at 16 months is pretty average. It's certainly not slow unless you are comparing it to early walkers (under 12 months of age).


Now as far as I'm concerned - all that falls in the realm of 'normal' and sometimes quite 'typical' 3 year old behaviour. I'll explain why point by point below (without references sorry as it's too much effort to go back and source things that have been learnt through various avenues over a period of 23 years):


Three year olds are ego-centric so they don't care what other people think. They haven't usually learnt at this age to consider other people's feelings and they are still learning to understand emotions (their own and other people's). This is something we parents work on teaching them.


Not all 3 year olds are clingy and have to play with their parent in the same room. Neither do all 3 year olds need constant attention and someone directing their play. I have parented two very independent children who are happy to entertain themselves for varying degrees of time (easily an hour or more with my youngest from quite a young age). I have also watched some of my coffee group friends parenting clingy kids who couldn't entertain themselves for five minutes and had to be in the same room as mum (and interacting with her) all their waking hours. These can all be variations of normal (although they can be frustrating for parents who want or expect something different).

I would only be concerned about either extreme if there were other 'signs' that things might not be normal. In the case of a child who consistently prefers their own company over being around other people, behaviours like not making eye contact, being uncomfortable with being touched or hugged, not wanting to talk to people and other signs of unusual social development would probably make me start asking questions. However your niece hugs indiscriminately and had good language development so the fact that she's independent and goes off on her own to do things (sometimes or even frequently) would not alarm me at all.


You didn't mention how she plays/relates with adults and older children (apart from saying she's happy hugging strangers) or whether she shows any interest in babies. I took your comment about her not 'relating' with same-age cousins to mean that she doesn't play with kids her own age and I have assumed (by what you didn't say) that she is happy playing with adults and big kids.

As I said in my earlier post, three year olds play 'alongside' not with their peers (meaning kids the same age). They can interact in games with older children because the older children are directing and leading the play. Same age cousins that see nearly as much of each other as siblings do may form really close relationships where they play with each other in an interactive way as opposed to just playing alongside each other. However it's not a given that this will happen and it really does depend on the personalities of the children and the quantity of time they spend together.

Early friendships are being seen in children that start daycare early and sometimes with coffee group kids that spend a lot of time together. Children that regularly spend hours a day together with other children their own age, can learn to play together with the same comfort and familiarity that can be seen between siblings (it's like these very familiar children become an extension of their own family so to speak). However, children that do this with their siblings/cousins/daycare or coffee group 'friends', do not seem to extend this to ability to new peers their own age when they start attending kindy or school (I've observed this first hand and talked to a couple of daycare and primary school teachers about it). With new same age peers, these children revert back to the playing alongside that is 'normal' for children aged 3-5 and the playing with the [new 'friends'] develops with time.


Children have different interests at different ages and stages. Kindergartens and playgroups offer a huge range of activities for this very reason. Pretend play is something she's more likely to do at four or five. Fiddling with things and trying to figure out how they work is a good sign of an inquiring mind eager to know about the world around her. Some children as young as two will try to pull things apart to see how they work. This sort of curiousity can be a good thing for developing her mind and her fine motor skills, if it's allowed under the watchful eye of a supervising adult (so she doesn't get electrocuted, swallow something she shouldn't or pull apart/fiddle with something they don't want her to touch).


Three year olds don't. Nor do a lot of four and five year olds. That is why humans are dependent on their parents for so much longer than any other species. This is why parents have to supervise them, know where they are, make their homes child-friendly, etc, etc. If you were saying this about an older (school age) child I might be alarmed, but three is very young and a bright, inquisitive child can get into huge amounts of mischief in a very short time. It's not malicious or naughty either - they simply have not yet learnt what is safe, acceptable, etc.


This is quite typical at this age - especially if she's an independent, wilful child. There are techniques parents (and other adults) can use to make sure sure she does listen. Things like getting down on her level and making eye contact. Using short direct sentences and a firm voice. Repeat instructions if necessary. And the big thing in positive parenting at the moment - use only positive phrases. So instead of saying 'don't ...' say 'do ... (whatever you want). E.g Instead of 'don't hit the cat' say 'be gentle with the cat'. Heaping praise on young children when they are behaving well is also a good way to get more positive behaviour while ignoring bad behaviour (unless it's unsafe) provides no reward and will hopefully lead to the behaviour decreasing.


Most three year olds will not have developed much (if any) sense of stranger danger so hugging people they do not know well is not as alarming as it may seem. Sometimes their reactions to people are influenced by how they see their parents interacting with people. If this three year old is with her parents and sees them interacting with a person in a friendly, accepting manner (especially if they are people who greet and farewell with hugs), she may feel quite comfortable with hugging a person her parents have been talking to. Likewise children are sometimes 'drawn' towards certain adults and hug them because they've taken a liking to them. Because I see the other behaviours you've described as sounding normal and because of her age, I am not alarmed by her indiscriminate hugging either.



I'm sorry but I've not seen anything to alarm me in what you have said. Who are you comparing her to? I think it easy to forget as your children get older what they were 'really' like at certain younger ages. So I would be wary of comparing her to what you remember of your own kids and instead encourage her parents to measure her against a wide circle of children the same age instead. Taking her to activities where parents stay with their children is a good way of them being able to observe other children and make friends with parents who have children a similar age.

Your comment tells me that they inexperienced first time parents so as I mentioned previously, encourage them to get involved in activities that involve other kids so they do know what to expect and can get support from parents going through the same age/stage/development issues. Parenting books, parenting websites and online parent discussions are another way of learning what to expect, getting support, asking for advice and tips, etc.



To be honest, I think posting straight into the forum for parents with children with learning and social difficulties has perhaps got you a different range of responses to what you would have got if you'd posted in general parenting or under fives. I think perhaps you are being too critical. What you described did not stick out as unusual to me.

I don't mean to offend those parents who do have children with Aspergers or autism or to remind them of times when they were told to stop worrying and that certain behaviours were normal. So I am sorry if my post illicited that reaction from some of you.

There are behaviours some children exhibit that are not normal and when you combine those with other behaviours they are exhibiting you definitely have your indicators that all is not right. But reading what purplebear wrote about her niece does not trigger off any alarms in my mind. It screams of typical three year old behaviour (many of which my own kids went through and grew out of as per normal development). I'm happy to list other behaviours that would set off alarm bells for me if they were listed (although it would only be to prove I know a bit about Aspergers and autism). My list wouldn't be relevant to purblebear's original question though because they would be behaviours she did not mention in reference to her niece (although I would link the behaviours to those she mentioned to show what things would need to be noticed by the parents to take the existing behaviours beyond being normal and into being worrisome).

My advice to purplebear is to encourage her sister to learn what to expect as her daughter grows because children can be challenging and difficult to manage (with or without Aspergers) way past the age of three and it will be a lot less confusing and stressful for them if they know roughly what to expect. Likewise if this child doesn't grow out of some of these typical three year old behaviours, then perhaps there could be a cause for concern later.

I hope this has helped (without offending).

Hi Jenni,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post in such detail.

I can see where you are coming from. And yes you are most probably right, no single one aspect of my niece would set off alarm bells. However, when I see her (and I do know a lot of children that age!) she just doesn't seem quite normal. I sincerely hope she does just grow out of the behaviour. I suspect not, but I don't feel comfortable pushing it with my sister in case I am wrong - I'll just make sure I'm there for support if the time comes.

I'll encourage my sister to get involved in parenting groups, as you mentioned, and just watch from a far for awhile, I think.

Cheers,

Jude

Actually, No. By age three children are beginning to depend on their own assessments of the world and will look to peers and parents for guidance on matters they may not understand. Developmentally, they are moving into a stage where their peers are very important.


Not nessarily. Sure, some autistic children dont develop speech, some do. Some are uncomfortable touching people, some arent. Its why its called a spectrum disorder.



One thing you forget though - with these types of disorders it is better to get the diagnosis earlier rather then waiting because you can gain access to support and extra help for the child.

I guess it just depends on whether the person asking the questions here has any understanding of what is 'normal' behaviour. It could be that her sister has a rather introverted, intelligent child on her hands.In which case she could do well to hone the intelligence and foster some peer oriented behaviours as well.. Im not saying the child needs a diagnosis, but that if there is concern then they should ask for help

See my children at the age of 3 would happily go off and play completely independently for 2 hours at a time and I know other kids that age who are like that too. My youngest in particular happily ignored me the entire time her sister was at kindy if we were having a day at home. She was perfectly content doing puzzles on her own or looking through books in her bedroom. She'd be so quiet I'd wonder what she was getting into and I'd go to check and she would be happily engrossed in a massive pile of books.

The reason I knew my daughter's behaviour (and that of purplebear's niece) was not worrisome was because these things did not apply:

purplebear only gave two examples of delayed development (sitting at 10 months) and walking at 16 months and these (especially in isolation like this) are not examples of delayed development. She made no mention of her niece not making eye contact and the comment about not relating to people specified 'same age cousins' and I explained in my previous post that this is actually perfectly normal. Now if purplebear had said she cannot relate to people in general, then perhaps there would be concern. However her niece is happy to hug anyone - even strangers - and that does not sound like a child who has difficulty relating to people.



Regular children like to play with other kids but their ability to do so develops over time. There was not enough information in purplebears post to suggest her niece has no interest in other children or doesn't like playing with them. There was only one line that said 'she doesn't relate to her same age cousins'. That on it's own, at the age of 3, would not make her a candidate for autism.

There was no mention in purplebear's post of what her niece's relationship with her parents or other adults was like. The only comments that could possibly be linked to relationships were those about her being 'insanely independent' and going off to do things on her own (which worded as they are did not suggest to me that she NEVER wants to be around her parents or other people) and not listening when people tell her not to do something. These are all comments you could make about any independent, wilful (sometimes naughty) three year old. I would need a lot more information about how she interacts with her parents and other people before I'd be prepared to consider the possibility of aspergers.

I really hope I'm not offending you by explaining why I say this. I just don't think it's fair to label this child on the basis of a small amount of information gathered over one week. Especially when it's behaviours that are so typical of a child that age. I wonder if perhaps people are reading more into what purblebear said than what she actually said and the danger of doing that is making a wrong diagnosis.

Its not easy to make a diagnosis for a child on the spectrum unless they are displaying fairly key markers. Hence why its important: If you see something in your child that worries you ask about it..

Owly Monster, back when I did my degree in pyschology, Piaget's theories were popular:



The following is from http://withyoueverystepoftheway.com/aspergers-syndrome-information/glossary/



I am curious as to where you got your information about what children are doing by the age of three, owlymonster, as it contradicts a lot of what I learned when I did my degree and what I have learnt since. I've recently been helping my stepsister with her essay structure for her assignments at teachers training college (she is training as a primary teacher now and I was an English teacher) and what you are saying is not in line with what I learnt (re-learnt for some of it) reading her recent essay on the development of children this age. Funnily enough her essay covered social development in preschoolers and how they interact with their peers - it was a subject dear to her heart now her son has had to go into daycare while she's training. His teachers had expressed concern over some of his behaviour towards his peers and it was quite empowering for my stepsister to research what was normal at this age and to be able to go back to his teachers feeling knowledgeable and having come up with some strategies that could be in place at daycare and at home to manage things.

Oops, we've been posting at the same time.





I think it's probably good to do a little research about what the key markers are though and what behaviours are normal within a development stage so you don't worry yourself unnecessarily. I guess talking to close relatives and friends that also know the child well would be a start. Being able to ask people that care about your family if they think you should be concerned and seek help would be one place to start. Talking to kindy and school teachers and your own GP is a good idea too.

Im just going to say that if you have concerns, Ask Someone. What I know and how I know it isnt really all the important

Katniksmum - I just thought I should say a couple of things about your posts (not offended by them at all,by the way, you are hopefully correct in your comments).

Firstly, I probably should have mentioned that there is a family history of aspergers syndrome in my brother-in-laws family - who I know quite well (one cousin has it) and also giftedness. I don't even know if aspergers runs in families - but maybe it does? and before anyone asks - yes it still hasn't occured to my sister.

Secondly, I actually (just through my own social networks) know quite a few 'difficult' toddlers. Three of whom have grown up to be diagnosed with giftedness, another with mild autism. My own daughter as a toddler was also a very sensitive child (still is). So I am not comparing my niece to just the 'normal' A type personality.

I guess I am just struggling to articulate what my niece is like. And it isn't one single thing, it's lots of little bits of behaviour that don't add up for me.

But as I said before, I hope I'm wrong.

Awww... The hoping your wrong thing: Having a gifted child can be difficult insome ways for both the parent and the child. But at the same time? She may be gifted Meaning she has special skills and an ability to use her mind in ways others cant.

Also, Sorry Katnicksmum : IM feeling really lazy and tired today. Too tired infact to look up my references in my text books on my shelf.. I may not be a teacher but I also have an undergrad degree in psychology and a grad dip in psychotherapy.. My observations are based on that.

Lol, don't apologise. I couldn't be bothered looking up references for what I was saying either. I was just curious about what your comments about three year olds because it was so different to what I have only recently read about them. I was particularly interested in when kids actually start making friends for a couple of years as I used to worry about DD1 not making friends the way I thought she would (or should) before she started school.

When she was very little she was super close to one of the little boys in our coffee group who we saw several times a week (same coffee groups, same Mainly Music, same playgroups and mums that hung out a lot just because we liked each other's company). Just after she turned 3, DD1 started at a different kindy to our coffee group friends. She did make friends okay but it was always with the older kids that would suddenly turn 4 and move up to morning kindy and then she'd have to make friends all over again. It was quite heart-breaking for her to lose her friends and for me to see her upset and then I'd be worried that she had noone to play with.

When she got to morning kindy her 'old friends' that she had known there didn't seem to remember her and were a bit clicky with their own friends so she didn't usually get included in their games. Plus at that stage the things the kids chose to play with were quite different. The four year olds who were nearly 5 were really into role-playing games while the just turned 4s were more into the playground equipment, the sandpit, water play, arts and crafts (more of the messy stuff ). She would start playing with other kids but if they decided they wanted to run off and do something else and she hadn't finished doing what she was doing, then she'd stay put instead of going off to join the next activity. I was starting to get worried about it and although I mentioned it to the teachers, they didn't seem too concerned. Plus we were moving towns so I didn't want to push it and have her make friends only to have to leave them.

We moved from Akl to Waikato half way through this year and she had to start over at a new kindy. That kindy had a sheet for parents to fill in about what they hoped their child would get out of kindy. Nearly everything I wrote was about how I hoped she'd learn to make friends before she started school! This particular kindy was great with providing information to parents though and they directed me to some reading material about when and how children socialise and make friends and what sort of play they are into at different stages and why and so on. It was fascinating reading and very reassuring as I found out that it was perfectly normal for children to not make friends that they play with (rather just alongside) right up until the age of 6. Thankfully DD1 did make friends before she started school - she just had to start over and make new ones when they didn't end up at the same school or were in different classes or year levels.

I totally agree that if parents are concerned that there is a problem, that they should definitely seek professional opinions sooner rather than later.

purplebear, I think it's great that you care enough to be concerned and also that you are prepared to be there to support your sister should she come to you and need support. I haven't heard of Aspergers or autism being hereditary (and a cousin probably would not really be a direct enough link to be worried about it if it is) but at least with a family connection there, your sister and her husband and their extended family will hopefully have enough awareness of the condition that someone, somewhere along the way would start asking questions if your niece's behaviour did become more alarming. all is well though.

Hey - just want to correct something - I can't currently find it but autism definitely has an inheritable trait. My copy of Tony Attwood's book on AS says he def sees it in families and often it's a bit like things like ADHD - a kid is diagnosed with it and then they realise a parent has it too.

Purplebear - I'd look more closely at the way her play is and the way she copes with change to routine etc.
My eldest, with AS diagnosed at 4 1/2, would throw an incredible meltdown if I parked in a different spot, routines changed in any way, unexpected noises - he had to stop going to kindy while they were having a new fence built because he simply couldn't cope with the hammering. How is she with the feel of certain clothes or foods - even now aged 13 1/2 W takes for ever to buy socks and other clothes because the seams have to be exactly right or else he can't stand to wear them.

One other thing which hasn't been mentioned is AS can present quite differently in girls than boys. Again Tony Attwood - www.tonyattwood.com.au is a brilliant resource for that side of things.

I'm not anything close to an expert on kids. I am how ever a mother to a girl who was displaying similar traits as described by OP.
DD1 is not Aspergers, she's not ADHD, she's not anything other than a child that was bored easily and destructive when not stimulated at the same age. I even had a kindy sit me down and tell me that she was special needs (err) which they quickly withdrew.
As it happens, she slowly came out of it little by little and began interacting with kids in her own time. She stopped playing beside them and getting into everything and took an interest in the social element of her learning.
By the day she turned five she had changed, it now seems like night and day. The insane wild little person that was in her changed and she has keen interest in numbers, letters and learning (nothing over or under normal though), joined sports teams etc. Ears automatically switched on and she's just lovely.

I did have a talk to the Dr about it but she said it was common for parents to have suspicions about their kids at age 3ish, and that it usually died out slowly as they came to school age. But if anything is going past school age, then it's a problem.

Now I am not at all stymieing the possibility that there could be something genuinely wrong with this little girl. But I do think that you need to chill about this. If there is a real problem then she will get picked up and placed in the system. In the mean time, I agree with the quote katnik posted. Parents don't want to hear that there is something wrong with their kid from someone on the outside. The best you can do, is be supportive and provide help and recommendations.

hi Purplebear

i havent read all of what everyone has said, so apologies if im repeating what others have said, Im a registered early childhood teacher, have worked in special needs schools in classes of children who were all autistic, and i have 3 children and 1 adult in my family/DHs family with mental disabilities (2 of them on the spectrum) so have a bit of experience in this area.. but Autistic spectrum is SO vast, from what you tell us without us knowing the child, she could just be a very lively, quirky child, who will grow out of her funny ways- or use them to become a genius in the future-who knows? or she could be somewhere on the spectrum.. its a very complicated thing to diagnose. how close are you and your sister?i guess all relationships are different, i know for me and my sister we have a close enough relationship that i could say something to her about her children if i was concerned and vice versa..but i know all families arent like that.



see, im sorry but i have to disagree with the above..getting to school age without a problem being picked up on is not a good thing..if the child gets to school and no support has been sought after, this is when a child often VERY quickly gets labelled with things like "trouble child" and slips under the radar. not saying always, but from experience, ive seen it happen way too often..including my DHs little sister who is now 12, she was labelled a disruptive kid who couldnt pay attention in class until she was 8, when she was finally diagnosed with asbergers, and now is a totally different child, thriving and learning with her teacher aide, fully funded (another thing with children who need support but arent diagnosed as anything is that the school and parents get no funding for anything the child needs...my MIL paid out of her own pocket for years for a teacher aide because little one couldnt cope and no one listened to her when she said she was more than a naughty child..)

and no, someone wont necessarily pick up on it and pass them on...often everyone leaves it to everyone else to do..kindys etc dont always get it right, so you cant rely on them always..so the best people, if there is real genuine concern, are family who can support each other through then entire ordeal..because it IS quite an ordeal when you are talking about diagnosing mental disabilities.

so at the end of the day, its up to you..if its keeping you up at night, and your relationship with your sister is tight then maybe you should say something?if not, maybe wait until she is 4 and then you could say something about being ready for school and coping etc, and bring it up that way?

GL hun, you are a good sister for seeking advice like this

Gosh what an interesting range of experiences we all have.

I have to agree that getting to school age for a child possibly on the spectrum without anyone looking into any possible issues would be a shame.

Katniksmum, I don't think anyone here has 'diagnosed' purplebear's niece. I for one have been thinking that if a person who has seen the child over a period of time and has knowledge of three year olds and of autism thinks there could be something different about the child, then that difference bears investigation. By experts. For the child's sake and the parents.

I also have to say (and I mean no offense here, you are clearly very knowledgable) that 1. Yes, autism spectrum disorders run in families. I am a geneticist, you can take my word on it but it is backed up by Atwood and others. One of the questions they ask when diagnosing is, are there any particularly quirky adult relations?

2. Autistic people often avoid eye contact. However they can also be at the other extreme, like my son. He will make very direct eye contact, he will speak to complete strangers in the street as if they are people he knows well (he invited a woman on the street to our house today). So to use purplebear's words, 'as likely to hug a stranger as her mother', I think that is a red flag, albeit a small one. I know plenty of three year olds and most of them would be more likely to hug their mother than a stranger.

Lastly, it just may not have occurred to the child's parents that there is anything different about their daughter, or if it has, they may be doing what I did and putting it down entirely to personality. I thought my son was just extremely strong willed, etc etc. it took a lot of reading about autism to see all the subtle ways in which his behaviour was unusual, and to understand that the difference was autism and not character.