Well, I changed formula to the HA formula and Georgia's reflux got WORSE. This morning she vomited 3 times in one feed. Only managing to get under 100mls into her. Lots of wind and exlosive watery poo's, screaming..nose is more blocked, now has a weazey chest..not sleeping. I rang karicare and spoke to a women who has said she really should be on pepti jun. So I am getting a tin sent. Now I how do I go all about the rest?
. She is 5 weeks old now and I have heard you can see a free paed before they are 6 weeks is this true?
Im at my witts end with it Its taking a good 1-2 hours to get 100mls into her

It is free.
I'm not sure what the deal is in Wellington, but have a look in the phone book and ring one. That's what I did in Auckland. There is a list of docs in the front of the white pages.

You need a special authority number for Pepti junior, or neocate (which is even better than pj).
Only a paed can do this.
Then you get the formula on prescription. Your GP can write out the script.

Get onto it as a tin will only last half a week maybe, they are half the size of a normal tin of formula.

If in doubt go to your local children's hospital, there are paeds there.

Oh and with the explosive poo episodes today whats happening is shes is taking say 30mls and then starts screaming hysterically..I start trying to wind her, tummy goes hard- I then lay her down to massage her tummy and the runny bum starts..shes then able to drink some more of her bottle once thats happened..we then have been getting vomiting either mid way or after a feed..

What the heck is going on? She had the same thing on normal formula but the runny poo was constipation.. does this all sound familar to anyone?

As you can see Im REALLY at my witts end..this same thing happened with DD1 for months and months and months and I really dont want to have to keep going through this. (We thought it was colic all along )

To go over main symptoms again-
*Projectile vommiting
*Gassy/wind
*Unsettled
*either diareha or constipation never normal stools
*starting to refuse the bottle..went to bottle as was refusing breast in first 3 weeks of life (wouldnt stay latched on ..would scream,fart etc)
*Constant blocked nose from birth
*Weaze in chset
*Not sleeping well, waking regulary and crying

Things I am doing to help'
*Sleeps in a hammock- have placed something in more to put her head more up a bit
*On second day of retitidine *spelling
*Propping her up for a wee while before she goes to bed

Anything else I could be doing?

suomi- Thanks so much for taking time to reply. I am just looking in the phone book now and will call in the morning first thing. Is it worth seeing a private one or do I try and get in to see the one she saw at the hospital (was born at 36weeks)?

Really does sound like issues with milk.
Either a milk protein intolerance or allergy.

Push for either Pepti junior or neocate. They will make you try PJ first.
Neocate is like the gold standard of milk. Completely dairy free.
Once you have the special authority number you can get either.

Good luck.
I'n not sure if there is anyone on here from Wellington. Maybe Roz will know someone.

It is so hard!

Either.
Seeing the one you saw at birth would be cheaper.
Do you have medical insurance?
If not now would be a good time to get it.

We don't have Medical insurance how much is a tin of Pepti jnr and Neocate with the special auth number?

With a special suthority number they cost about the same as normal formula, so $7 ish a tin. (and remember they are half the size, so $14ish a big tin)

Without the number I know neocate is like $100 a tin! So you need the number.

Some paeds are very reluctant to give it to babies. So be really clear with her symptoms and don't down play anything.
I know I used to get a bit fuddled when I finally got to my appointment and never said half of what I wanted to say.
I ended up writing a list of questions and symptoms so i wouldn't forget.
Take that list you wrote with you.

Hi Skyla,
I'm in Wellington so might be able to help!
The hospital paeds can take for ever to get an appointment. But maybe when your GP does the referral (you have to get them to refer to the hospital paeds as I understand it) you can ask them to mark it urgent to move things along a bit.

A private paed is going to take a little time too as they mostly only work privately a few days a week - rest of the time is in the hospital! I think, been a while since we've seen a paed priovately, you'd be looking at probably $100 for an initial appointment.

Failing any of that, considering your little one's age you could probably get some action if you turned up at the hospital ED and made a deal about the explosive poo etc - littlies dehydrate very fast etc!

If you want to see a paed for free because of being under 6 weeks old then you need either your midwife or OB to refer you as it's funded under the maternity system! I learnt that when Thomas was a newborn!

Hey thanks for that info suomi I was expecting a stupid amount like 60.00 a tin!

Hey Eleanor, thanks so much also- I was going to call my midwife tomorow and ask her to get me a referral done. (actually might call her now and get on her back)

Hi Skyela, sounds like you are having a rough time.

I 2nd Eleanor's idea of going straight to hospital and getting Georgina into the hospital system. Also look at the front of the white pages, there are private paeds there. I think **** somthing specialises in babies under 6 weeks old? I will look for you.

I had to take Sasha into hospital at 3 months of age (with bad bottle aversion and reflux, dehydration, however I struck a really bad paed, who was useless. But I did end up getting into the hosptial paed. nurse system. She is much better than Plunket and got me into seeing a really good paed. We are finally now on neocate. The nurse comes and sees me at home, and if I have worries she will talk to the paeds.

You have to be really careful that Georgina doesn't get bottle aversion. Is she on any medication ie losec?

Sasha too rejected the boob so I put her onto the bottle which made her worse. But I didn't know any better at the time.

So if it was me I'd a)go see gp and get referral to hospital, get her onto medication ie losec.

Try and be strong, I too recommend writing all the symptoms down. It can be treated. It really is hard to find a paed or doctor that understands what is happening. My Paed at Wgtn Hospital now is **** *******.

Good luck, it is tough, but this board really helped me and continues too!!

Sorry that sounded a little muddled!! A little sleep deprived today!!

Hey Skyla,
I noticed you're in Upper Hutt.
I know that there are 4 paeds at Hutt Hospital and at least one of those works privately. We've seen ***** **** privately and publicly. If you can find one who works in both systems then you can work acutely with them publicly first and then ease off and see them privately and you don't lose continuity of care.

Just a thought! I've straddled both systems with all the kids (yes 3 refluxers!!!) and having to re-invent the wheel is time consuming, irritating and pointless - unless you aren't getting the help you need and then starting over is the best thing you can do!

Well after a god awful morning I got hold of my midwife again to really get her onto it. She rang a paed at the hospital and they are goign to send me a appointment out within the next 10 days. In the mean time I have a tin of pepti junr due to arrive tomorow and they are going to send me out a number to get another tin of formula in the mean time if it works.

The paed was a women at the hospital and she is very keen to see Georgia and see what is going on. I wonder if its *****..will have to wait for the appointment.

Gosh thanks allllllll soooooooooo much for your help. I really feel for all you refluxing parents. This stuff is hard work! DD was a silent refluxer but nowhere as bad as this. Today Georgia was so unsettled I feed her at 7am and she was still awake at 11am screaming..poor wee button.

She is on retitidine 3 times a day of 0.3mls. She is 3.8kg now so hoping hes got her on the right dosage!

Hi skyela

We're in Lower Hutt and have seen a paediatrician privately (both daughters have reflux). If you get an appointment before your daughter is 6 weeks old you get $100 paid by the government and you'll pay the rest of the fee (that's what happened when we visited a paed privately before DD2 was 6 weeks old).

I know how hard it is to wait 10 days for an appointment with a refluxer. Let me know or pm me if you'd like some more information.

I hope you'll get an appointment soon.

UPDATE: Its getting worse coming out with such force and through her nose..last feed she vomited twice like this right after I feed her. Have been speaking on and off to the midwife all day- because Georgia has been having wet naps theres not a huge concern yet. Her urine is nice and bright though so will keep a eye on that.

Hey Sunflower, Sending you a PM now thank you. I am hoping this appointment is ASAP otherwise Im heading down to A&E..this just sucks

hi, just sent you a pm. Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

skela - we just spent a week in hospital because the reflux was projectile and horrible. I would just take her to the ed at your hospital like we did. ds was projectile every feed almost and not keeping anything down - and he has been on neocate 2 months now. over the weekend preceeding our hospital admission he power chucked most bottles but not all - i initially thought he had a tummy bug but he never got diarohoea (sp?) so wasnt convinced. he still lookd bright and hydrated, but i am glad we took him to the hospital as by tuesday even with contimious tube feeding he was limp and eyes all sunken. the best way for drs to take you seriously is to go to ed, and then you get a paed for free anyway. cry if you have to - always helps!!! besides the fact its upsetting anyway.

good luck!

What about trying her on losec?
It is much better than ranitidine.

But it really does sound like a huge milk issue. This may well be causing her reflux.

Really hope you see a difference with the pepti junior.
If not push for neocate.
We saw a little bit of an improvement with pj, but then things got worse again and didn't improve until we were on neocate.

yes Carli, I always found crying helped!
Not that I had to put it on, I was a blubbering mess for nearly a year with out little refluxer.

How is your little guy now Carli? That sounds terrible. Did they get his vomitting under control? Was it a bug?

I will take her to the docs tomorow again,I have also been chatting to the MIL whos a ED nurse and shes going to come and have a look at Georgia if I want her to tonight when Georgia wakes up to make sure shes not getting dehydrated. Isnt it horrible when you look at them in bed and hope they stay asleep as you arent looking forward to seeing them in pain..

Crying does help, done that more than a few times today!

Skyela, DD2 was a power chucker too, up to 10 times a day of full feeds. Had to change her, and myself all the time. Ruined the carpet etc.

She had a really bad gag reflex, so anytime she saw the bottle, or it touched her lip in the wrong way she would vom.

What I would do would be to feed her almost immediately after a vom, so at least you'd get something into her.

She too ended in hospital with a tube as her vomiting got really bad. Losec seemed to help, and I changed her to soy.

It is a long battle, if you do get to a paed soon, or hospital I would mention is this a gag reflex as well as a cows milk intolerance. There are specialists who can help you with the gagging aspect.

And I totally agree with Scumbucket, it really helps to cry and be determined at hospital. I hope you can get some help soon. DD2 vomed from the moment she was born.

Just to add, does she vomit after or during her feed?

I also remembered that we had to keep Eloise up right for a good hour after a feed. I used to put her in the vibrating chair, up right, with towels all around her. OH and the dummy seemed to help her as she concentrated on sucking that.

hi skyela - how is she? when i took ds he was not yet dehydrated, but they admitted him anyway. even with continious feeds and bolus neocate he got dehydrated. if they keep puking they need to be in hospital. The problem with continual puking is nbot only the fact they may get dehydrated, but also the electrolyte balance in theri blood can go up the whop iykwim? so they do need to be monitored from that aspect too - whilst we were in hospital last week they did a number of tests to rule out other possibilities too as it may not be 'just' the reflux causing it. then again for ds it was 'just' the reflux - a severe episode at that.

lol at all who cry - it works sooooo well!!!

suomi - no it wasnt a bug. I did think it was initially but it ended up being an exacerbation of his reflux. they put it down to the fact that a month ago when we were in hospital for iv antibiotics (severe infected excema and abcesses) they made us start solids because he was 6 months. He is highly allergic to many things nad his feeding went to the crap and reflux worked overtime. they changed him from ranitidine to Losec (a hefty dose too). I managed to get 5mg/1ml so i have to give him just 2mls otherwise we were wearing the 2mg/1ml!!! that stuff is so foul.

skyela - how are things today? Have you started the Pepti yet?

Max was so like this aswell it was hard, he even reacted to the pepti jnr. He is now on neocate and doing so much better, he takes 20mg losec granules a day in the morning and that is fantastic! I cant believe the difference.

I hope that you can get seen really soon!

How are you doing?

Am over it!

So the pepti Jnr Arrived Friday morning, so far we have had less vomits (only TWO since Friday morning) which is a HUGE difference from 1-4 a feed with the Karicare HA..BUT shes NOT SLEEPING!!! Lots of wind issues with it and screaming. She seems to have a sore tummy on it. Man oh man!! Nothing I am doing will help her

I had tears in my eyes reading your posts. You poor thing and poor bubba. You need to get some neocate into that babe ASAP. What is the next step??

It can take about a couple of weeks for it to work properly thats what my paed told me, i couldnt have Max on the pepti he immediately continued to fire worse diahorrea than before. If you want more pepti i have one and 3/4 tins here you can have. Flick me a PM if you want it

She is having worse diahorrea on it as well, I have never actually seen her so unsettled I guess we need to give it time to work. I cant seem to work out how much to give her. It says on the tin 90mls of water 3 scopps, but sometimes that doesnt seem to fill her up? Also on the tin says one thing and the booklet I got says another?

The pead from the hospial is meant to be sending me out a special authority number before my appoinement(which I was suprised about) do I then have to go to my own doctors with that number?

your own doctor should get a copy of the number at the same time you do, if not before. but yes, once you have the special authority number, your GP can do the scripts. you could also have a chat to your chemist, mine lets me have things before the authoirty comes through.

You said a few days ago you were going to your GP. Im just hoping that have done a few tests to check there isnt a tummy bug present.

ring the formula company for accurate directions on who much formula & mixing instructions, they are the experts. never add more or less formula than instructed or you can end up with kidney issues, dehydration or diarrhoea.

Im wondering about your hamock bed too. My kids had projectile vomitting (all of their vomitting was projectile) & if they got bent in the middle at ALL, the milk would shoot back out. It just made me wonder when you said you had put extra padding at her head, if its made her more bent. I also found never ever lying them down flat helped (even elevated for nappy changes).

Hope things get better soon

We thought about the extra support under her head and took it out as I felt it was bending her too much as well

We didn't end up at the doctors as I spoke with him and he said give the formula a go first, MIL came and checked Georgia out for dehydration etc. The projectile vommiting started exactly at 3 weeks when she went to full formula.

For nappu changes I put her in her big sisters buggy and raise the head of that a bit- find it helps lots

Skyela,

It does take time with the new formula - they have to get all the reactions out of their system and stop the irritation - if that makes sense. An elimination diet takes a good 2 weeks to see a reaction/improvement so the formula change will take that too.

Thomas has been on Neocate Advance (he's 3) for about 3 months but before that he was on Pepti and it's definately 1 scoop per 30 mls.
She may seem hungrier at least in part because the formula is more broken down and so easier and faster to digest.

Nicholas, my middle one, has on Pepti for about 6 months, not because of any particular allergy but because the dietitian said that some reflux kids eat and gain better on it - as it's easier to digest and so doesn't sit round in the system for so long and so less likely to reflux.

I know when Thomas got put on Polycal at his last paed appointment she had to apply for a special auth number - which she did on line and went through immediately. They used to send YOU the info on the number and when it expired in the past but they only tell docs these days - call your GP and check it out to get more.

What does your gut instinct say? It's usually right ... if you feel that he's still not coping with pepti junior (and not sleeping is a big reflux issue and food allergy/intolerance symptom) then get hold of your paed and trial neocate. I'm happy to sell you a couple of tins and post them off if you want ... my girls just didn't cope with anything other than neocate ... and I couldn't cope with out of control reflux .... Diahhroa is a symptom of food intolerances/allergies too ... It may well be that bubs can't handle the trace amounts of dairy in pepti junior (like many of our babies) and need neocate which is completely dairy free ...

I put the girls cots up on an angle by using the empty formula containers under the legs ... can use phone books too ...

to you ....

skyela - how is it going today? sounds like it is still very stressful. like the other wise ladies on here have said it will take a while for the formula to work.

I remember ringing the 0800 number on the tin as i felt DS was still hungry and she was wonderful and told me to give him more if i felt he needed it as it was only a guide.

I would also recommend losec as i found that so much better than any other medicine. i was worried about getting the granules into him when he was only 6wks but he swallowed them ok when mixed with a little pear. losec stops the stomach pump producing so much acid which is what causes them the pain.

DS used to have his day sleeps in his buggy and then often would take till midnight for him to be so exhausted that he would go to sleep.

Hey everyone, you girls are so great to me!!!

Well, today was pretty stressful but tonight she went down a treat. DF and I looked at each other and smiled...both girls are in bed as we speak. I think her unsettledness was because 100mls wasnt enough for her. I gave her 130mls at 530 and she went to sleep for the first time without being held or without screaming. It FEELS like things might be looking up...I hope so..I guess you have your good days and bad days. She still isnt 100 per cent right but as you all have said it takes a few weeks..Im already seeing a difference in it..we havent had a projectile vomit since before starting the formula..only had two wee spills due to wind coming up so fast I think.
She still has a blocked snuffly nose and a wee weazy chest but its nowhere near as bad as it was.

MM- Today Georgia slept on Dave in the morning and me on the afternoon..they say not to let a baby get use to sleeping on you..but for the sake of your sanity you just do it eh.

I have to laugh as well..we said we wouldnt give Georgia a dummy..well since I had NO sleep last night we went and brought one..GUESS WHO WONT TAKE IT!!!

My one refuses the dummy too - blinking pain in a reflux kid



The volume on the tin is just a guide - the number of scoops per ml of water is key - and she may well be able to take a 120/150ml bottle (especially if you break the feed)

skyela - don't feel bad about them sleeping on you macey did and she turned out fine.

Hey Skyela,

How's it going? Got the Pepti supply set up? I remember trialing the Neocate Advance with Thomas, getting him used to the taste and then having to wait for the chemist to order it in - and going back to the Pepti in the meantime! Only for a day or two but I was afraid he wouldn't take the Neocate after that!

Hope things are improving...

You just do what you have to do to survive the reflux rollercoaster ride

Lurking in after a fellow-Sept MTB mentioned this thread (we've been discussing reflux lately)

With the sleeping thing - I have a Moby Wrap (from http://www.scarecrowfarm.co.nz), which is wonderful for keeping William upright, and snug. When I was in hospital Will was unsettled and I was desperate for sleep, so I wrapped myself in the Moby, slipped him in, and we both slept very peacefully for a few hours (and I didn't have to worry about dropping him or whatever in that post c-section haze). Although Will's reflux is well controlled with my DF diet, I am sure wearing him is all good for him (especially when it comes to being at Kindy - I have 2 hands free for Mr 2.5, and Will is kept snug and away from snotty noses and uncovered coughs KWIM?). (With James I used an Ergo which was good, but I find the Moby way better!).

I've also been giving Will probiotics. When we paid to see a private Paed for Em's gluten-intolerance and James' silent reflux, both times Dr Ford said that being c-section babies they aren't innoculated with beneficial bacterial at birth and I was also given IV ABs). Dr Ford said that the bacteria help with digestion (and poor digestion may be involved in my kids' food intolerances - gluten & dairy). I'm not sure if your baby is a c-section birth or not, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to dose with probiotics. They are about $50 for a pottle at your local health food store (kept in the fridge).

Another thing we tried this time around (found out about it too late with James) is a cranial osteopath. She felt a tightness around his umbilicus. After 2 sessions she said he was all in balance now and she couldn't do anything more for him (though she warned that sometimes in a growth spurt they can develop kinks again). We're not sure if she made a huge difference, but there was certainly no harm done in trying (and a friend said most babies would benefit from a cranial osteopath session given their cramped up positions in utero and delivery).

I am lucky that I am breastfeeding Will as I have a lot of control over what he is exposed to (though I admit that not eating dairy can be tricky at times). I hope things are ironed out for you soon!

Thank you so much Dunners- thats fantastic advice. Georgia is a c-section baby..as was DD1 which is interesting as she had silent reflux. I will get her some probiotics- didn't think of them for her even when I take them myself!
I am going to do some research on the best cranial osteopath as a few people have mentioned one to me now.

I got the special authority number sent through yesterday and put the order in. Does 7.00 a tin for pepti jnr sound right?

We are having some good days and some really really bad ones..I guess thats how it goes eh.

It's a rough ride with a reflux baby.

One thing that I found really really helpful with the paed is the diary.

Mine looked something like
Wake BF 5 min on and off spill, screaming pulling legs up, large spill, BF 2 min screaming blah blah blah.

I wrote down EVERYTHING as I found from experience that I couldn't get the extent of the situation through by trying to explain it on the spot.

Good luck, it will get better (eventually)

Hi Skyela,

Yeah, $7 a can for pepti sounds about right from what I can remember with Thomas. It works out to be much the same as if you were buying a can of Karicare or whatever, possibly a little cheaper depending on how much you use.
The shocking bit is when you see how much things actually cost!
5 cans of Neocate advance actually cost around $340 - thanks to the magic of the special authority it brings it down to $30!!

It will get better eventually, just hang in there through the roller coaster.

I thought it was poetic justice when William developed reflux as I'd had killer heartburn when pregnant with him - but after a few weeks it wasn't funny any more! And 3/3 reflux babies...hubby and I have looked at each other more than a few times and wondered what we'd done to deserve THAT - hope we enjoyed it, the karmic revenge is pretty horrendous!
All joking aside, it's an incredibly stressful time but most people get through it sooner than we did.
Hang in there and enjoy the good days - try and remember them through the bad, they will come back again!

Hi skyela
Sorry to take so long to get to this thread but you have had some good advice.
I'm not sure that the dose of Ranitidine your baby is on is adequate. See http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/MedicalTreatment/DosageSchedule.htm The dosages here are worked out for a twice daily dosage but even taking in to account that it is being given three times a day it is still a bit low I think. You can print off that page and show it to your GP/doctor who prescribed the Ranitidine. It is all referenced. Ranitidine is most often given as two doses daily also which may make things a little easier for you.
Are you giving Gaviscon Infant? It might helps things a little more. It needs to be given two hours apart from Ranitidine though and can cause constipation. Medication instruction sheets are here: http://www.cryingoverspiltmilk.co.nz/MedicalTreatment/MedicalTreatment.htm

BTW everyone I have edited out most paediatrician's names here (that I found) as although they have been mentioned on good terms things can turn nasty. Please see the guidelines pinned at the top of the forum. Use PMs for this please.

You should notice whether PJ is suitable by the end of a week. If problems continue with vomiting, hard tummy and diarrhoea, then it may be worth getting someone to observe a feed - Plunket, GP, Practice Nurse or whoever... Not all paediatricians will make you trial PJ first. Some will go straight to Neocate depending on history, age, family history etc.

Hey Roz,
Well the projectile vommiting started again (had a 4 day break I guess?) got hold of the doctor on Friday (was sick of going in each week to get the dosage put up again) we now are on 1ml twice daily which is about right for the chart..his idea was to start slowly and work up..its hard when a mum just wants her sleep and a baby needs her sleep and needs to feel comfortable though.
We took Georgia to After hours last night as we were at our witts end- we thought they could send us with a referral to the hospital as they normally do..but because she was hydrated and ok he advised us to wait for our appointment (which still hasnt come through)he told us to watch out for a ball under her rib cage that we havent seen for a condition called Pyloric Stenosis... we rang the hospital on Friday and we are also meant to have a appointment card sent out this week.. Looks like we are better off paying to see a Paed at this rate as its really taking a toll on us..Georgia is technically thriving as well..shes on the bottom 15th percentile but slowly putting on weight.

When we changed to the PJ the vommiting stopped for 4 days..We still dont know why? don't know why it came back again either!

We also didnt know about Gaviscon so will ask the doctors about it on Monday- he said if I dont notice a difference over this weekend with the 2mls a day to go back to him....dont know what he can do for me as so far I feel like hes beaten around the bush helping me... Ah sorry for the rant its turned into!!

If you can afford it it might be better to see a private paed....keep trying to smile and remember you are a great mum who is just having a tough time at the moment.

Pepti Junior is broken down into short chains of amino acids or subunits of proteins called peptides, hence the name. The theory is that the body can't recognise these partially digested proteins. BUT some are very sensitive and their bodies quickly learn to recognise the peptides so Neocate is needed. Neocate is broken down into amino acids - so as far as it can go. Hence it is very easily digested and very hard for the body to react to. What you describe isn't that uncommon and I know of a paediatrician who probably would have given you Neocate straight off due to bub's age - not in Wellington though.
Gaviscon Infant thickens the stomach's contents to a gel and is a gastric reflux suppressant. It may help a bit but I think it is more the formula that you need to get right.
If you get worried and the appointment keeps on not turning up, then you might just have to turn up. We were in a similar (non reflux) situation with my eldest and we were told we should have been seen in Emergency even though the advice was different at the time. Go with your gut feelings as they are usually right. Your GP can always refer you in acutely on Monday. Just tell him the promised appointment seems to be taking a long time.
Hugs. You are doing a great job.

Hey thanks for that info Roz, I went back to the doctors again yesterday in tears. I got a appointment finally at the hospital for this Tuesday coming we can get to the bottom of this! Thanks everyone for your help and I will let you all know how I get on!

Good luck!

The appointment went well, she felt its very highly likely that its a cows milk allergy going by the strong symptoms. I am to do 2 weeks on Neocate & then if no improvement we are to go back for further tests, ph probe etc.
I feel theres reflux and a allergy happening but we will see!
She gave me some drops to unblock Georgias nose which is a constant problem, I did so last night and its been running all night of which she hasn't been able to sleep.. you can't win!!
It was also very funny as she asked if Georgia coughs alot, I nodded and said all the time, sure enough Georgia starts coughing on command
I hope we can get to the bottom of this..I need some sleep as does she

Thanks again for everyones help!